This week's remarkable guest is Derek Sivers is a former musician, circus ringleader, entrepreneur, programmer, and TED speaker. He is the founder of CD Baby, which he started by accident in 1998 when he was selling his own CD on his website. CD Baby became the largest seller of independent music on the web, with over $100M in sales and over 150,000 musician clients. Ten years later, Derek sold off CD Baby and gave the proceeds to a trust for music education. Derek is also an author. He wrote How to Live, Hell Yeah or No, Your Music and People, Anything You Want. His newest book is now available - a new edition of his 2011 book, "ANYTHING YOU WANT: 40 lessons for a new kind of entrepreneur." In this episode, we cover the following: Entrepreneurship Innovation Writing Parenting And kicking ass in general 07:58 to 08:17 - Brief Gorilla interlude 20:20 to 21:45 - Never giving up on dreams and live your life. 41:54 to 42:47 - Derek choosing to do what he wants after he sold CDBaby + Teaser 52:39 to 55:00 - Derek’s first paying gig and becoming a ring leader
Derek Sivers, who sold CDBaby for $22m to Disc Makers in 2014, talks about his amazing story of entrepreneurship on the Remarkable People podcast.
Guy Kawasaki is on a mission to make you remarkable. His Remarkable People podcast features interviews with remarkable people such as Jane Goodall, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Marc Benioff, Woz, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Bob Cialdini. Every episode will make you more remarkable.
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Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to help you be remarkable. This episode's guest is Derek Sivers.
He's the former musician, circus ringleader, programmer, entrepreneur, and TED speaker.
He's the founder of CD Baby.
He started this by accident in 1998 when he was selling his own CD on his website. CD Baby became the largest seller of independent music on the web. It had over 100 million in sales and over 150,000 musician clients.
Ten years after starting CD Baby, Derek sold it off and gave the proceeds to a trust for music education.
Derek is also a prolific author. He wrote How To Live, Hell Yeah or No, Your Music and People, and Anything You Want.
His newest book is now available, a new edition of his 2011 book, Anything You Want: 40 Lessons for a New Kind of Entrepreneur.
In this episode, we cover entrepreneurship, innovation, writing, parenting, and kicking ass in general.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. Now, here's the remarkable Derek Sivers.
I've been a fan. I'll tell you what triggered my love of Derek Sivers, which is the famous first follower video. It's utterly fantastic video, one of my all-time favorite marketing lessons of life.
Derek Sivers:
Guy, I have a quick question for you. What was the most terrified you've ever been in your life where you seriously thought your heart might give out, because it's beating so fast?
Guy Kawasaki:
I can't tell you I've had any experience that terrifying. Why?
Derek Sivers:
Me on stage at the TED Conference giving that talk was that terrifying for me.
Guy Kawasaki:
Seriously?
Derek Sivers:
When I listened to the recordings, I know I sound pretty normal, but the thing is TED doesn't let you use notes, and at that first follower talk, every sentence is perfectly synced up with that video. So, it has to be memorized word for word.
If I miss a sentence, the whole thing is thrown off. It's a three-and-a-half-minute monologue that I had to memorize word for word, which was hard enough. Anybody who's done a school play or something like that has done that. But then to do this at TED, not even a TEDx but the main stage TED, where there's Bill Gates.
There's the Google guys. There's Bill Joy. There's, oh my God, all these brilliant people, and I have to get up and tell them something.
I gave that talk, but to me, my biggest memory of that talk is how terrified I was, or it was not even rationally terrified, but my body was just freaking out as I'm giving that talk.
Then I get off stage, and I had such a cool experience where Peter Gabriel rushed up to me and said, "Brilliant talk. Best thing I've seen in years. Absolutely wonderful, found and poignant and pithy, just brilliant." I was like, "Thank you, Mr. Gabriel." I was like, "I guess I did all right."
Guy Kawasaki:
Let me tell you something. You can knock me over with a feather right now ,because I did not notice that at all. I mean, it was such a brilliant video, but now that's a very good segue.
The point of that video is that the first follower is very important, and as you say so succinctly, it turns a nutcase into a leader. That's one theory, the importance of a first follower.
On the other hand, you have Geoffrey Moore and the product lifecycle, and how he says, "It's pretty easy to get the nut cases and the pioneers. It's how do you get the late adopters, middle adopters, how do you get to Main Street."
So, it's contradictory, which leads me to your book, which is twenty seven chapters of contradictions. Is it the first follower, or is it getting to Main Street that's hard?
Derek Sivers:
Well, I think that the important step there... Look, no guru in terms of leadership, I don't know much, but I've done a couple things. I've read a few things, and I saw this video of a dancing guy right after reading Tribes by Seth Godin, and Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell.
Then somebody was just sharing this video of a guy dancing at a music festival. I said, "Hey, this reminds me of what I just read about in Tribes and Tipping Point." I went, "Actually, there are a lot of similarities here."
To me, the big lesson that was, let's say, visualized, we can think of this conceptually, but to see it happen visually was that guy was dancing alone for a long time. There are other videos you can find of YouTube of this one shirtless guy was dancing for twenty minutes, and everybody's just looking at him like, "Look at that weirdo over there."
Finally after twenty minutes, one guy gets up to imitate him like, "You know what? I'm just going to jump in." This one guy gets up and starts imitating him, and that's what sets it off.
It's felt to me like the first follower was showing the rest of us how to follow. Now, we just had to do what he did. I think those early adopters are the bridge between the mainstream. They're showing everybody else, "Look, here's how you do it. Look what I'm doing with it. Look, I've hacked it to do such and such. Look, these are the benefits I'm getting from it."
Then the rest of us that are more mainstream can go, "I can do that. I can do what he's doing." Now, the actual innovator's moot. What we're really following is the first followers.
Guy Kawasaki:
Since we're geeking out on videos, did you see the video where these kids are bouncing these balls around, and then a guy in a gorilla suit comes in?
Derek Sivers:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
For thirty seconds, he does something. Then they ask the kids, "Did you see anything unusual?" Half of them say, "No, nothing unusual happened," but there was a gorilla in the middle dancing or something.
Derek Sivers:
The first time you saw the video, did you see it with the kids watching, or did you just see the video of the basketballs in the gorilla?
Guy Kawasaki:
I saw the one where you saw everybody, gorilla and the kids.
Derek Sivers:
I still remember the first time I saw that video, I watched all these kids bouncing the balls, and it said, "Watch this video. Count how many times the balls have bounced." I think that's what they said. Then afterwards, they said, "Yes, but did you notice the gorilla?"
I was like, "No way." You can only see it for the first time once. Once you've seen it once, now you always know there's a gorilla there, but God, there's a life lesson in there. Actually, thanks for reminding me of that.
Sorry, I'm going to zoom out of it to life here. Somebody might tell you, "You're being rude. You said something rude to this person. That was really inconsiderate." You might think, "Really? I didn't." You go, "Oh, I did. Oh, that was inconsiderate, wasn't it? Oh crap, I'm really sorry."
Now that somebody's pointed it out, now you can see it, but the first time it happened, you just didn't see it. I think that's actually a wonderful metaphor for a lot of things in life. It's like our personality flaws are like that gorilla. We don't see them until somebody points them out.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, half my listeners are stopping the podcast, and they're going to go look for the guy dancing and the gorilla.
Derek Sivers:
Oh, but now we've told them. It's a shame. Now they know. But did you see the gorilla? If you haven't seen it yet, we just wrecked the surprise for you. Sorry.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's true. I am so fascinated that New Zealand apparently has reached so deeply into your soul. What is it about New Zealand that's so magic for you?
Derek Sivers:
It's not the damn Hobbit movies, that's for sure. But not only is it physically beautiful, we all know that. We've seen how physically beautiful the landscape is, but the people here have a wonderful practicality.
They're extremely pragmatic. They are the descendants of farmers that moved over here from Scotland and Wales, very ruggedly turned raw land into cultured, domesticated land, and had to be very pragmatic. Also, because it was so remote, they had to be very resourceful. That's the word I was missing, because we're so remote.
It used to be that if your tractor broke, and you needed a replacement part from England, because no tractors were made here, you had to wait six months for the replacement part to arrive on a boat.
So, people learned how to fix things. There's a local saying of number eight wire.
There's a certain kind of wire that was used to make local fences, and we had plenty of that here. There's plenty of number eight wire. It's like how we talk about duct taping a solution together. Your number eight wire a solution.
That's the local slang for duct taping something together. A little number eight wire can fix anything. I really like the very practical, resourceful attitude here, and I agree with its values.
Guy Kawasaki:
By your earlier comment, I take it you haven't gone to Hobbiton, and hung out there?
Derek Sivers:
I haven't. I live in Wellington where the movies were made. In fact, my girlfriend works at Weta, and makes the sculptures and stuff for Peter Jackson's company that made all the Lord of the Rings movies.
They do these tours where they say, "Ooh, let us show you where the movie was filmed. This tree is where the hobbits were hiding from the Orcs. This hill is where this battle was played.”
I always think, "You know what? Here, I'm going to show you something special. See that yellow house over there? No, the one next to it. That yellow house, that's the only place in New Zealand where Lord of the Rings was not filmed."
It's all right. That hype is fading now. I've been here for ten years. The Lord of the Rings hype is fading down.
Guy Kawasaki:
I've been there twice. I don't know if that makes me go higher or lower in your book, but it’s in Mana or something, right?
Derek Sivers:
It's a good place to visit, but it's a great place to live. It's a great place to bring up kids. There's a lot of freedom. In fact, I just went to Japan for two weeks with my kid. I've got a ten-year-old-son. He has grown up here with so much freedom.
He just does whatever he wants. He goes out by himself, and even if there's a playground, he does whatever we wants. We went to Japan, and it was shocking the difference in attitude towards kids. He went to a Lego land type playground, and immediately just started climbing on the castle, and shot over to him right away.
"Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Mustn't touch that. No, get down please. No climbing on the castle. No doing this. No doing that. No. No touching the foxes." He's grown up with a lot of freedom, and so New Zealand's a great place to bring up kids.
Guy Kawasaki:
Derek, you are the perfect interviewee.
Derek Sivers:
Thanks.
Guy Kawasaki:
My next question is what have you learned by being a parent, because so much of your writing and your video's about your son and going to Japan and all that? What have you learned?
Derek Sivers:
I don't feel I have any authority to say much of anything. You've got four kids, so I feel that you've been able to see the difference between nature and nurture, right? Your kids have very different natures, I assume.
Guy Kawasaki:
No kidding.
Derek Sivers:
See, I've only got one, so I haven't been able to see that yet. I can say my kid is the best. My kid is so badass. He is so smart, but I can't take any credit for any of this because it might just be DNA. I feel that's one thing I've learned from parenting is that I don't know anything about parenting, because I've just got a really cool kid.
But you know what, John Lennon said something once that made a big influence, big difference for me. It was a big good influence on me, is he missed the childhood of his first son, Julian.
So when Sean was born, I think probably 1975 or so, he said, "I've decided I'm going to just stop everything. No more. I'm just going to be John, not John Lennon, told my agent no to everything. I'm just going to be a full-time dad." I remember reading that as a teenager thinking, "That's a cool path. Go get as successful as you can, make a lot of money, follow your dreams, and then when you have a kid, just stop and be with your kid."
That's what I did. I did a lot of things. I made a lot of money. Then when my wife was pregnant, I was living in Singapore doing a lot of things, and we just said, "Let's get out of here. Let's go to the middle of nowhere where we don't know anybody," and that was New Zealand.
We moved here really for him so that I could just give my full-time attention. I'm mostly a full-time dad or have been mostly a full-time dad for most of his childhood. It's been wonderful.
It's been great. It's the things that usually stress out most parents I think are the friction, the misalignment between their time schedule and a kid's sense of time, this frustration of, "Come on, we need to go now. We're late. Come on, hurry up."
With my kid, it's luxurious. I feel ridiculously privileged to say that I did this, but I just was a full-time dad that was able to just hang out with him on his schedule.
A kid's sense of time has nothing to do with the round clock, with the hands of the numbers. I've just been able to be on his sense of time.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you have any concerns that he may grow up thinking, "This is how life is, I'm the center of the universe."
Derek Sivers:
I'm raising a narcissist. Maybe. We'll see. No, it might be. I don't know. That said, God, this is another interesting subject of whether social skills can be taught. I think, conversational skills can be taught.
I think you can learn to be a better conversationalist, and I think you can learn to be more empathetic, even if it's just, what do you call it, fake it till you make it. My favorite Kurt Vonnegut phrase is you are whatever you pretend to be. That if you pretend to be something, you become that thing.
So, somebody who isn't naturally empathetic can just do what empathetic people should do, or act empathetic even if they're not feeling empathetic, but then acting empathetic can make you more empathetic, like forcing yourself to ask people questions in conversation.
Even if you're not inherently interested in this person, you're just tossed into a networking event or something, right? You're just like, "Ugh, might as well make the best of it," so you just go up to a stranger, and say something like, "What's the worst thing that happened to you this week," or whatever open-ended questions. Then they start talking, and now you become more interested in that person, right?
I think I've always taught my kid empathy skills, and now he does them instinctively. Ever since he was two or three, whenever another kid would fall down in the playground and get hurt, I'd say, "Oh, let's go give him a cuddle." We'd rush over to the kid that just fell down, and give him a hug, and say, "It's okay."
The first one or two times I instructed him to do that when he was two or three years old, and ever since he was three, whenever a kid falls down in the playground, he just instinctively does it now. He just rushes over, and puts his arms around him, and says, "It's okay. It's all right. Can I help?"
I just see him just do this naturally now. Hopefully these things can be taught, so even if I'm accidentally raising a narcissist, at least he cannot wreck the world.
Guy Kawasaki:
Someday he's going to listen to this podcast, and be traumatized.
Derek Sivers:
That's all right. No, it's fun. Sorry, how old is your oldest kid now?
Guy Kawasaki:
Twenty-nine.
Derek Sivers:
He's just ten. So just the last year or two, he's old enough to have these really mature conversations. I'll actually tell him things like we're talking about now.
I'll talk with him, per Meta, about parenting. It's fun to hear his point of view. He's wise. It's really cool when they get old enough to have those conversations.
Guy Kawasaki:
You said you just went to Japan. Have you heard of the Japanese's concept of ikigai?
Derek Sivers:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, is parenting your ikigai now?
Derek Sivers:
Ooh, not my sole one, no. I don't know if it's primary or secondary for me. I actually spend most of my time on parenting, but it feels secondary.
I still feel like my own personal goals with writing and thinking and creating are still my primary focus in life, and my kid is secondary, but I might just be saying that. I don't know. If I were to actually look at my time, it might be the opposite, or if you were to put me into one of those deciding moments like, "What's it going to be? I'm going to kill your righted career or kill your kid?"
You might think I know which one I'd choose, the kid, obviously. I couldn't do without him.
Guy Kawasaki:
But what if it was something like your kid is in an important championship soccer game, or ski tournament, or violin concert or something, or you got invited to speak at Davos? Which would you pick?
Derek Sivers:
I have had something like that happen. I'll tell you a tiny story. I've actually talked about this with him too. About three years ago, the TED Conference was doing their TED Global, which is a thing that they would do once a year in a different location each year.
That was deliberately far away from the main one in Vancouver, Canada. Then it was going to be in Arusha, Tanzania. I was like, "Ooh, I've never been to Africa." It's like, "I haven't gone to Ted in a few years. I'm going to TED Global in Arusha, Tanzania. Hell yeah."
Guy, I got two books on the key Swahili language, and an audio course program. I started learning Swahili. I read two books on the history of the East African coast, otherwise known as the Swahili Coast. I got really into it. I was so excited to go.
But right before that conference, I was attending another conference in Seoul, Korea, and then I had the few days off in Singapore, and then I was to go to Africa. Just two days before I was set to go, his mom called me from New Zealand, and said, "He's asking if he's ever going to see you again. He misses you so much."
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow.
Derek Sivers:
I was like, "Oh fuck." I was like, "Have I been away that long, I was like, in his world?" I was like, "Oh God, nothing can harm our relationship. Nothing is worth that. If I become one of those dads that's absent, and he thinks of me in that way, no conference in Tanzania is worth that."
So, I blew it off. I blew off the conference. I didn't attend, lost all the money for the airfare and the conference. It's all non-refundable. I flew straight back to New Zealand to be with him. But in hindsight, he and I have gone without seeing each other for a month once when his mom took him to see her family, and I didn't go, and we're totally fine.
He and I have such a tight bond that if we don't see each other for a couple weeks, it's fine. In hindsight, I really gave up a big dream of mine to be with him for that extra five or six days.
So, in hindsight, I regret it. I don't think I should have. I would've talked to him on the phone, and said, "I'm going to Africa. I'm going to have all kinds of stories for you. I'm going to bring you something cool from Africa. I'll see you next week." It actually might have been cool for him to know, "Wow, my dad's in Africa."
Maybe looking on the map to see where I am. Maybe he could watch some YouTube videos of Tanzania to see where I am, and then I could've come home, and we would've hung out, and everything would've been great.
That example you said like his school play or Davos, I think I'd just have a conversation with him, and tell him like, "Look, I don't want you to ever give up on your dreams for me. In return, I don't want to give up on my dreams for you. We should never give up on being our fullest selves for some little event." I think that's my answer.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow. That is not how I expected that story to end, to put it mildly. I have to stop and think about that.
Derek Sivers:
It's cool that I get to talk with him about this too. We talk for hours and hours and hours every week. I spend about thirty hours a week with him, and so we talk about this stuff. I say, "Do you remember that time that you thought you would never see me again, because I was about to go to Africa?"
Well, so I'll talk, again, like meta with him about this to help him understand the mindset too, and make sure that he understands. "Never give up anything for me. If I'm old and sick, and you want to go to art school in Vienna, go. Don't sit by my bedside. I'll hire a nurse. Don't worry about it. Never, never give up what you want to do for me. Please go live your life. I want you to be your fullest self. In return, I want you to want that for me too."
Guy Kawasaki:
Why don't the two of you go to Tanzania?
Derek Sivers:
I think we will. We're actually going to India for the first time in a couple months, and I think we will go to Africa someday soon.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. Now, you make it pretty clear on your website that you basically say no to everything. So, I just want to know, how did I make it past that very high block?
Derek Sivers:
Oh God. Oh geez. I've read so many of your books, the one with the pencils, the ape, the marketing ones, and I just started reading your Wise Guy. I think there are even others in the past.
No, you are... There are some things where somebody who has no track record says they'd like to interview me. I think maybe, and I got an email from you. I'm like, "Oh, hell yeah, I am right on that." I so admire you. It's such an honor to talk with you.
Guy Kawasaki:
We can just end the interview right now.
Derek Sivers:
Thanks, everybody.
Guy Kawasaki:
I did all this background research on you. I have to say that you seem like such a total no bullshit kind of guy, so I really... I want to know just what do you think of gurus and thought leaders and experts and people who hold themselves out that way?
Derek Sivers:
I have learned long ago to disassociate the ideas from the giver of ideas. I think that's helpful, because you can hear a wonderful bit of wisdom from a stupid Hollywood movie or from a drunk at a bar.
But if that bit of wisdom is something that you can use, and you go, "Ooh, that's what I needed to hear. This gives me a new insight. This gives me a new perspective," and if that helps you in some way, then that's all that matters.
It doesn't matter who said it. Back when I used to buy more hardcover books, they have the strong cover, the binding, and then they have the loose, glossy thing around it that's meant to call attention in the physical bookstore.
That thing often has a picture of the author. By the way, quick pause, your... What was it called? The Reality-
Guy Kawasaki:
Check.
Derek Sivers:
The title of yours, Reality Check. Reality Check is one of the best book covers I've ever seen when I was researching book covers and trying to say... I love the cover of Reality Check. I've always wanted to tell you that, but a lot of those glossy hardcover books would have a picture of the author on the cove.
I would always tear that off right away. I'd buy the book, and remove the glossy cover so that all I was left with was just a solid color book with the title on it, and went there. This book is not about the author. It's about me.
I'm reading this book for me. I don't care who you are, Mr. Guru, Mr. Thought leader. This is about me. I don't care what you're accomplishments are. I don't care what you've been the CEO of, or what other people have said about you.
All I care about is how your thoughts are useful to me. That's my opinion on thought leaders is I really don't care who they are or how acclaimed they are. I also don't care if people try to discredit them.
If I read a brilliant philosopher or somebody just giving brilliant ideas that I find useful, and you tell me that person didn't pay their taxes, I'm like, "Therefore, you shouldn't listen to what they say”, or “That's a bad person who did bad things. You shouldn't listen to what she says."
I don't care about who's giving the ideas. I only care about the ideas themselves, detached from the giver. What this reminds me of is Glenn Gould, the classical concert pianist from the 1950s. I think my favorite movie of all time is called Thirty Short Films About Glenn Gould, because he did some fascinating, innovative stuff where he was the most acclaimed classical pianist of his time.
People would flock to concert halls, and pack in seats thousands to one, meaning thousands of people crammed into seats all staring at one man on the stage. He really didn't like that imbalance. He did it, but then he stopped saying, "I disagree with this ratio of thousands to one. I think, the relationship between musician to listener should be one to one. I want to make music individually for one person at a time."
That's why he focused the rest of his time on recording. Then my favorite thing, the point that I'm getting to, is that he said, "Ideally, actually the relationship would be zero to one. We wouldn't even know who the musician is. So, now, a listener could have a direct relationship with the music itself, not the musician giving it."
I went, "Ah, that's what I love. That's how I feel about thought leaders. I wish that they were all anonymous, and we could just focus on the ideas themselves."
Guy Kawasaki:
I would say that your book, How to Live, approaches that. First of all, it doesn't have a glossy cover. That's for sure.
But first of all, describe that book, because I have a hard time wrapping my head around that book.
Derek Sivers:
It's funny. Your newest Wise Guy book is your most personal book of vignettes from your life. To me, How to Live is my most personal book because this is how I see the world.
Sorry, listeners, I'll rewind a bit. My newest book called How to Live, the subtitle is important. It's Twenty-Seven Conflicting Answers and One Weird Conclusion. The idea is there's this question of how should I live? We are used to having many different thinkers or different books give us conflicting answers. One book says that habits are the key, and another book says, "No, the obstacle is the way."
The other book says, "No, it's the four-hour work week." Somebody says, "No, it's the subtle art of not giving a fuck. This is the way." These answers disagree with each other, but as you're reading each book, you feel thoroughly convinced. You go, "This is so true. Habits really are everything. It's all about the habits. Habits are what life is about." But then you read another book, and you go, "No. It really is the subtle art of not giving a fuck. That's what life is about."
How to Live is a book where each chapter disagrees with all the other chapters.
One chapter says, "Here's how to live. Be independent. All misery comes from dependency," and it makes the best argument in about four or five pages of why being truly independent is the way to live. Then the very next chapter says, "Here's how to live, commit. All great things come from commitment. There's no sense in looking for a great relationship. A great relationship is something you create. You create it by your commitment. Instead of searching for the best career or place to live, commit to a place or a career. That's what makes it great."
It's the best argument I could make in favor of why committing is how to live, but it completely disagrees with the previous chapter.
Then the next chapter is, "Here's how to live. Fill your senses. All of this stuff is just abstract. What really matters is the touch, the smell, the sound. You need to fill your senses. You're only here on earth for a limited time. Go do it all. See it all. Hear it all." The next chapter will say, "Here's how to live. Do nothing. Follow the Buddhists. Just meditate on the hill. It's all in your head anyway. Detach from this impermanent life." I believe all of these things, and they can all be true simultaneously.
They don't conflict with each other really in the way that a flute does not conflict with a cello, and a piano does not conflict with a guitar. You can combine them.
You can bring them in and out of the music of your life at different times. You can decide, "I need a little more guitar now, and now I'm going to combine it with the piano." Now, stop the guitar, and just let the piano continue. That's how you can be with the different approaches to living.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think that the inability to keep two conflicting thoughts in your brain is a sign of stupidity?
Derek Sivers:
Stupidity, no. Value system, maybe. I guess if you were grownup being told that you have to decide like, "Now, what's the answer?" One or the other, you need to decide.
I guess that value system could get deep into somebody's soul where they feel a need to decide, but that's what I was hoping to do with this book called How to Live is show people that it can be and not or.
Guy Kawasaki:
Can you give us some insights in how to decide between pivoting and cutting it out, for example?
Derek Sivers:
To keep going with the metaphors, it's like, "How does a composer decide whether what's needed now are the clarinets or the violas?" You have to just make a creative choice. But also, things are usually more subtle than slogans, and aphorisms make us think they are.
Aphorisms and tweets and slogans are wonderful portability. We could carry them with us in our mind, but they're not the most accurate representation. We can believe look before you leap, and he who hesitates is lost. We can believe both of those truisms, but we have to know when's the right time to use each of them.
Neither one can answer all of your directional questions in life. You have to know when to pull out each one. I think, the truth is usually more nuanced than the little tweets and aphorisms would have us believe. That's the complexity of life, like knowing when to use the different things that we've learned.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, I'm sure... I'm not sure, but there's an Amazon review where the guy starts off in saying, "This book is full of contradictions. I don't know what the author's point was like. Nothing makes sense. Everything contradicts each other. Excuse me."
Derek Sivers:
I love that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Did you miss the boat here? That's the whole point, right?
Derek Sivers:
I should do that thing. Some proprietors do it when somebody lives them a bad business. I'd say they've got a high-end microbrewery, and somebody leaves a bad review on some social media sites saying, "These guys didn't have Budweiser. They didn't have Coors."
They'll put that negative one-star review on their door going, "That's right. We don't have that stuff. You aren't welcome here." See, that was really funny. I really liked your APE book about the self-publishing. I actually followed that blueprint a lot for the creation and release of my own books.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow.
Derek Sivers:
Even though my first book was on Penguin, and I loved my connection at Penguin, and she was wonderful, I just wanted to self-publish. She offered to publish anything I did in the future, but I really like self-publishing. I used to run CD Baby.
I know how to run the stores. I know how to make a store. I have my own opinion on how things could be made and sold. I think the creativity does not end at the last page. It continues on to the way that we present it and deliver it to the world.
Sorry, what were we just talking about? I lost my train of thought. I started thinking about your APE book. What was the question? Oh, the bad review. \
Guy Kawasaki:
That's all right. I got so lost. What was the question?
Derek Sivers:
No, I stacked on tangents. No, you were talking about the bad review. I sold all of my books only on my website, exclusively on my website for over a year before I finally and reluctantly and quietly put them on Amazon. After quietly putting it on Amazon, the second review of How To Live said, "What the hell? This book is contradicting itself."
It's funny because the very subtitle of the book is Twenty-Seven Conflicting Answers. That's the whole point.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think people should mark that review as the most helpful, because-
Derek Sivers:
Yes, that would be fun. We'll do a campaign. Everybody, please go to the Amazon page for How to Live, and mark that the most helpful review. Let's try to get this book down to one star.
Guy Kawasaki:
You are such a perfect interviewee, because my next question was clearly, you can get published by any of the big houses, so why self-publish? Is it just the control, or is it the greater gross margin?
Derek Sivers:
Oh God, no, it's not the money. In fact, I don't scream it from the rooftops, but I set up my publishing business as a C-corp, not an S-corp or an LLC, which means that all of the money stays in the company itself, and none of it flows through to me.
I did that that way on purpose, because I give away all the profits. So all the money from selling books, none of it comes to me. It all stays inside the C-corp, which then all goes back out to charitable organizations, usually just through give the effective altruism stuff. I just let them decide what's the most effective use for it.
It's not for the money. It's a little bit for the principle that when we first got online, you were there at the very beginning too, mid-nineties. It was so decentralized, and it felt so cool that anybody could set up their own website. People could run a server out of their home, and they did.
There were thousands of these little BBSs and little local forums and bulletin boards. I really loved the decentralization of that, and I missed that. I wish that history had taken a slightly different turn, and that just like most people know how to drive, I wish that most people knew how to make their own website or set up their own server.
It would just be a basic life skill that we knew how to do so that when a company comes along and says, "We'll handle that for you here. Give us all of your information. Give us all of your friends," that we could just look at that offer and say, "No thanks, I'm all set."
To me, when I look at Amazon, I just say, "No thanks. I don't really need anything you can offer. I could just sell these myself. I don't need you. I'm really just making these for my existing fans anyway." We've got search engines. You search for the name of the book, and it finds me. If I lose a few sales because of that, I'm okay with that.
Louis C.K. years ago decided to bypass Ticketmaster. Ticketmaster had this absolute monopoly on venues, and venues said, "You can't perform here unless you use Ticketmaster," so Louis C.K. was just popular enough that he said, "All right, then I'm not going to play your venue."
He only worked with smaller, independent venues that didn't use Ticketmaster, and he only sold the ticket himself directly on his louisck.net website. I thought that was so badass and such a great demonstration.
He's taking a small sacrifice for himself, because of the principle of it to say, "Some of us need to be the ones to stand up and say no to the man, and decentralize, and be a bit of a role model." I think I just choose to do that with my own books.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think that many people believe that they should find a passion in their life relatively young, and then dedicate their lives to it. I swear, there are kids who are eighteen years old who haven't discovered their passion yet, and don't know what to put on their college essay.
Do you think people should set themselves up for seeking this passion, or should they just scratch interests?
Derek Sivers:
You brought up ikigai earlier. I thought of it independently. I didn't know about ikigai until after I wrote something called Happy, Smart, and Useful, and I drew these three circles by the intersection. Then people said, "It's ikigai." I looked it up. I went, "Oh, that is similar. I think those have four circles."
But anyway, to me, we have to think of the intersection of happy, smart, and useful that you could do something that just makes you happy. But if it's of no use to the world, then that's like the starving artist problem.
Meaning, if somebody's making music that's deeply meaningful for them, but nobody else likes their music, then we call that the starving artist. It's creating, but the world is not rewarding them for creating. The world's not into it. That's a big problem in any field, not just for artists.
You can feel that you've got a deep passion for an app that's going to tell you what other people are eating or something like that. You could throw your life into this for years, and make that app, and the world can go, "We don't want that."
That may be fine with you, right? If nobody read my books, I would still write. I don't care. I'm doing this for me. I'm not doing this so much for this. But if you want the world to reward you, especially if you're planning on being sustainable, then you have to do something the world is rewarding you for. By that measure, you shouldn't just follow your passion.
You should, like you say, scratch your itches. Put a bunch of things out into the world, and then most importantly, see what the world is rewarding you for. So, it's like you try lots of things, and then when the world says, "Ooh, that one, that's what we want," now you can double down on that thing.
Trent Reznor, we know him from Nine Inch Nails, the musician behind Nine Inch Nails. There's a little known story that early on, before he was famous, he was a musician in Ohio that liked to just be in the recording studio by himself, and play all the instruments himself and maybe with a couple friends, but generally, he was in charge of things.
He had five different band names recording under five different styles, but they were all basically him. He had a grunge band here, and a metal band, and an industrial thing, and a techno thing, and a dance thing.
Then it was this industrial one that a record label went, "Ooh, we like that." He went, "That one is called Nine Inch Nails." He said, "That's the one we want. We like that."
Then he stopped doing the other four, and he became the Nine Inch Nails guy, doubled down on the one thing that the world was rewarding him for. Then now, he's doing more soundtracks than anything, because the world started rewarding him to do soundtracks.
I think that the better path to follow is to not just blindly follow your passion, but to carefully listen to what the world is rewarding you for.
Guy Kawasaki:
But, doesn't that make you subject to the wisdom or stupidity of the crowd?
Derek Sivers:
I think that's why we have to mix it in that... What do you call those intersecting circles? Venn, the Venn diagrams.
Guy Kawasaki:
Venn diagrams.
Derek Sivers:
I think that's why we draw ikigai or my happy, smart, useful with those intersecting circles. We can't only just do whatever the crowd wants of us, but we can't do only what we want, and screw the world unless, by the way, some of the happiest musicians I know are the ones who decided to stop doing music for the reward.
So, they keep a day job that doesn't suck their soul, that's something they can do from nine to five that pays all right, that's a decent living wage career that pays them well enough to pay their cost of living. Then they just do their music at night and on weekends, but they still take it seriously.
They still spend about as many hours as they would ordinarily, but they're not depending on it for their income anymore. They can sell some music to fans, and they can do what they want, and they can make music they want to make, but not need the world's approval to make them a million seller.
I think that's the... You could choose which balance works for you. Either you do work at the intersection of what the world wants for you and your creative urges, or you just get a job that pays your cost of living, and you can just write what you want, play what you want, sing what you want, sculpt what you want out of mud. It doesn't matter because you're not depending on the world rewarding you for it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Believe it or not, that's how I feel about podcasting.
Derek Sivers:
How so?
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't have a sponsor. I don't sell advertising, but it's my ikigai. I have been fortunate to make money in other ways where I can afford to lose money on podcasting. I don't care. I truly believe that the quality of this podcast will not be appreciated until I die.
That's not reason to accelerate my death, but I digress. Sorry.
Derek Sivers:
God, that's so cool. When I sold CD Baby in 2008, CD Baby was already profitable. I was the sole owner. I had no investors, and it had already been making a few million a year for years. When I sold it, I sold it for more money than I was ever going to be able to spend in my life.
My first thought was that thing that you just said, "Now that I've got this, I could choose to do other things, even if I lose money on them. I could do other things for musicians now, and charge nothing."
Even if it costs me, I don't know, $100,000 a year, I can choose to do this ten years, and I can afford it. That's so badass. That was the first place my head went to when I sold the company.
Guy Kawasaki:
By your definition, I'm a badass then.
Derek Sivers:
Yes, you are.
Guy Kawasaki:
You already quoted from another badass, and I just want to mention one thing that he said that so resonated with me, and I'm praying, crossing my fingers and my toes and every appendage of my body that you like what he said as much as I do.
With that buildup, let me tell you what it is. Mark Manson has this theory that you found your calling, your passion, your ikigai when the shit sandwiches involved in that process are something that you like. You like the shit sandwich. I like the shit sandwiches that podcasting requires. Do you agree with that theory? Please say yes.
Derek Sivers:
It's a nice way of putting it. I like the smell of my kid's poo. When I changed all those diapers, I didn't mind it one bit. I was like, "I don't know what people are complaining about. It actually smells sweet to me," if we're going to literally follow that metaphor.
By the way, I got to say one thing about Mark Manson. Mark and I are friends, because I was such a huge fan of his writing that I reached out to him long before his first book just from his blogs. I was like, "Oh my God, dude, you're my favorite writer. You just..."
He went, "Oh my god, Derek Sivers, I love your writing too." So, actually on his Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, I'm on the back cover. My rave about his book was on the back cover of the first edition of that hard cover. I was very proud of that, because I loved that book and just all his writing. Still to this date, I read a ton of books. I don't know if you've seen the book notes on my website.
If you go to sive.rs/book, you will see every book I've read since 2007, and all of my notes on it. I take detailed notes and all the cool ideas I get from these books, and I just share it on my website.
Every time I'm reading an author, I almost always paraphrase what they say, because almost every time I read an idea somebody else has written, I feel it could be said better. I hope that doesn't sound too egotistical, but I just feel that there's probably a more succinct way to put this.
There's a better way to put this. The only one that I could never paraphrase, because he said it fucking perfect, is Mark Manson. Every time I get something, I'm like, "There's no better way to say that. He nailed it. I think he's my single favorite writer."
Guy Kawasaki:
Isn't he in New Zealand now?
Derek Sivers:
No, he was a few months ago. I don't know. Unless he's here right now, and didn't tell me, but no, I think he's in L.A.
Guy Kawasaki:
I interviewed him for this podcast. He was in New Zealand, but that was months and months ago?
Derek Sivers:
How long ago? He was here a few months ago last year or earlier this year. Anyway, we went on a long walk. I took him to my favorite forest, with him and his wife. It's our first time catching in a while.
Guy Kawasaki:
Not Hobbiton, I take.
Derek Sivers:
No, that is not my favorite forest, although I live right next to the forest that I was referring to earlier where it's like, "And here is where the hobbits were hiding from the black rider or whatever." I live right next to that, so I walk by that almost every day. It's funny.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. How much time you got?
Derek Sivers:
We're good. I'm loving this. It's such an honor to talk with you. Lay it on me, anything you want.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have some topics. This can be a speed round. How's that?
Derek Sivers:
Great. Speed round.
Guy Kawasaki:
This is a speed round because I basically want the succinct gospel according to Derek, because I know you're capable of doing this. Topic number one is the art of raising money, how to raise money.
Derek Sivers:
I've never done it. No idea.
Guy Kawasaki:
How to convince people to join your team.
Derek Sivers:
They have to have the same mission. When I started CD Baby, all my first employees were either musicians or people that loved musicians enough that they just wanted to join my mission to help musicians.
It was only much later when people were finding it through a help wanted ad, because they were looking for a job, and those people never really aligned in the company. I really think that you just have to find people that have the same mission as you do.
Guy Kawasaki:
How about how to write a book?
Derek Sivers:
Lots of blog posts. I highly recommend this. Anybody listening to this, if you're thinking of writing a book, I so, so, so highly recommend. Don't keep it buried inside of a book until the end. Take your individual ideas, and shine a spotlight on one idea at a time by making each one a separate blog post.
Even if you just put it on a little anonymous WordPress that you haven't told people about, but by making each idea stand in its own spotlight, in its own post, and then later you can just take all of those and combine them and wrap them up into a book, it gives you a much better sense of momentum.
It helps you develop the individual ideas, and I think it helps you call attention to some of the bright ideas that ordinarily might get buried on page 280. The best book I've found about how to write a book lately is called Write Useful Books. It gives a great step-by-step methodology in writing a great book.
Guy Kawasaki:
Madisun, get that book for us.
Derek Sivers:
Yes. In fact, the author, he's a fascinating guy. I think he'd make a really good interview for you too about his books.
Guy Kawasaki:
My last question for you is what's your advice about the first job out of college?
Derek Sivers:
Ooh, I'm going to cheat, and give the advice for your first ten jobs out of college. I think you should do lots. You should absolutely not get onto one tried and true path. I think it's the weird things you do early on that will be your advantage later on.
I was the ringleader MC of a circus for ten years. Inside of that job, I did Christmas caroling at shopping malls. I got inside the big giant bear suit to give kids hugs at amusement parks. I played in the rain at pig shows. I built a giant dragon, and wrote all the music for this big dragon dance piece.
I moved to New York City, and I said yes to everybody that was looking to hire a musician. If it said jazz pianist wanted, I said, "All right, I'm a jazz pianist. I can do it." If they said heavy metal guitarist needed, I said, "All right, I can do it."
I answered every ad. I did every little gig. When I was twenty-two, I got this weird gig playing guitar for the Japanese pop star, Ryuichi Sakamoto. I sold chimney sweep services by telemarketing. I did so many weird little jobs. Because I was doing these weird jobs, all of my friends were weird musicians and actors and sculptors.
These were my friends, and so I was surrounded by such creative people living interesting, unique, creative lives. My girlfriend of many years, when I was twenty-one, her parents had never held a job. They would just do odd jobs for money. They lived at an old house that was 30,000 bucks they built themselves.
They put their daughter through college with the money they made baking pottery and doing odd photography. This was my extended family, and these were my role models. Then later after I started CD Baby, and I'm helping musicians, and then I sold the company, and people thought I was an entrepreneur.
So, suddenly, I'm surrounded by all these young, ambitious entrepreneurs wearing suits, talking about getting something series A and angel investing and things I know nothing about. They think that I'm one of them. They're saying things like, "How did you have the courage to quit your job?"
I'd say, "Job, I've never had a job. I don't know..." I was in a circus. I think that those weird things I did early on from age seventeen to thirty became such a huge competitive advantage for me later. I feel bad for the people that they just follow the regular path. They go to high school, and they just go straight from high school and into college.
They get a major in communications or something like that, and they get a job at some big company. They're just wondering, "What am I doing with my life?"
I've got the same question. What are you doing with your life? Go do weird shit. Go start an emu farm somewhere, and get a job on a fishing boat outside of De la Croix or whatever. It's the weird stuff, the weird experiences that will give you a more unique perspective, a different angle than everybody else has, and give you a different insight that sets you apart later.
Sorry. To answer your question, your first job out of college, go do something really weird, and keep doing weird things.
Guy Kawasaki:
You have got to tell the story about playing music at the pig show, and the lesson you learned, because that is a brilliant story.
Derek Sivers:
Sure. My first paying gig ever, I was seventeen years old, and I was in a band in Boston with this bass player that was more experienced than me, and was in a few different bands and playing lots of gigs around town. He had an agent.
I was seventeen years old, and my friend had an agent. His agent called him, and said, "Hey, there's a pig show that pays seventy-five dollars for you to go play some strolling music. Will you do it?" He said, "Hell no." He turned to me and said, "Derek, you want this gig?" I said, "Hell yeah, my first paying gig."
We were living in Boston. I was at Berkeley College of Music. The round trip bus ticket to Vermont was fifty dollars. I didn't care that I was going to make a whopping twenty dollars to date, because this was my first paying gig ever. I was given really no instruction. Just get on this bus, go to this place.
Somebody will meet you. Play music at a pig show. I'll pay you seventy dollars. I'd never even met the person that was hiring me. I did the gig, showed up. I just walked around this pig show with a guitar on my neck just playing guitar.
After three hours, I said, "Should I go?" They said, "Yeah, thanks for coming. That was wonderful. Thanks." I got back on the bus to Boston, and then the agent called me, and said, "This is Greg Merrill. I heard you did a really good job at the pig show. Look, I've got this circus, and the musician just quit, so we need a musician for the circus. I need you to get on a bus to Sturbridge, Massachusetts. My wife will pick you up at the bus station. We've got this art gallery. I want you to play at the art gallery opening. If you do well at the art opening, then you're in the circus."
I said, "Okay." I showed up to this art opening. His wife picked me up at the bus station. Again, I just had no idea what I was doing. I was seventeen years old. I'm sitting at an art opening playing guitar.
Then this lanky guy comes up to me, and says, "Great job. I'm Greg. I'm the guy that talked to you on the phone. We've got this circus. Can you start tomorrow? I could pay you seventy-five dollars per show. We've got about four shows a week."
I said, "All right." I just said yes to everything, which I think is a wonderful strategy early in your career. Just say yes to everything.
That's how I got my job in the circus, which ended up being over 1,000 shows, eventually. I started making $300 per show, and performed 1,000 shows around Northeast, U.S. It was an amazing stage experience, because it turns out that the previous musician was not just the musician.
He was actually the ringleader MC of the whole show, so at the whopping age of eighteen, I became the ringleader MC of this circus, and had to learn how to do even the stuff I'm doing now, even this confidence to put together coherent sentences instead of stammering and saying a lot.
I learned that from being on stage at the circus, all of these things, such a massive experience because I said yes to the seventy-five dollar pig show gig. I think that's a huge lesson learned that I evangelize, to use your word, everywhere sense that is to say yes to the early stuff, to say yes to everything early on in your career.
Guy Kawasaki:
That is a great story. I love that story.
Derek Sivers:
Me too.
Guy Kawasaki:
This is more personal than anything. I've read that you've had tinnitus since thirteen or something. Do you still have it?
Derek Sivers:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
How bad is it... Does it keep you up bad, because I have it too?
Derek Sivers:
Not quite keep me up, but I'm aware of it at most times. I've got about five tones in there at any given time, like a super high one, a mid-high.
Guy Kawasaki:
Both ears or one?
Derek Sivers:
Both.
Guy Kawasaki:
But obviously, you can still hear.
Derek Sivers:
I can hear everything, but I also hear these tones. That's where I'm at age fifty-three so far.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have Meniere’s, and Meniere's involves tinnitus, vertigo, and hearing loss. I had an operation for the vertigo, so I haven't had vertigo for a long time. I'm almost completely deaf on this side, and half deaf on this side. I've had tinnitus in this side fifteen years or whatever.
Derek Sivers:
Wow.
Guy Kawasaki:
This is just to let you know. I would have really loud tinnitus, but not tinnitus that would cause you to want to kill yourself because some people do have that. I just had a cochlear implant.
Derek Sivers:
Oh wow.
Guy Kawasaki:
The cochlear implant, which turned a deaf side into a hearing side, it really reduced the tinnitus.
Derek Sivers:
Oh wow.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, I'm not suggesting you get an implant for this purpose, but all the stuff you read about eat less salt, less caffeine. Don't do this. Eat sweet and sour pig testicles, drink more niacin, all that shit that you hear, all the woo-woo stuff, but I'll tell you, cochlear implant really reduced the tinnitus.
So if you ever lose your hearing, and you'll get a twofer, you'll get your hearing, and you'll reduce the tinnitus if you ever do that.
Derek Sivers:
I am so happy I can finally stop eating sweet and sour pig testicles. Thank you.
If I learned nothing else today, I learned I could stop eating those for breakfast. Damn, I've been hating those.
Guy Kawasaki:
See, you would've never learned that talking to NPR.
Derek Sivers:
Exactly. They never give me any useful advice.
Guy Kawasaki:
Thank you so much. This has just been so remarkably funny and interesting.
Derek Sivers:
Thanks, Guy.
Guy Kawasaki:
All the best to you. If I ever get to New Zealand again, man, I'm going to look you up.
Derek Sivers:
Thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
We can go to Hobbiton together for my third time.
Derek Sivers:
That would be wonderful. Cool. Thanks, Guy. I appreciate it. Anybody listening to this, just go to my website, and send me an email. One of my favorite things about what I do is getting emails from strangers.
Every day, I just answer the emails that I get from everybody around the world. Send me an email, and introduce yourself. I love that.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's Derek Sivers. I hope you learn the wisdom of trying many things, guitarist, circus ringleader, entrepreneur. Try lots of stuff, and don't be proud. Remember, Derek's first paid gig was at a pig show.
I wish I could tell you I made that rhyme on purpose.
Then plant many seeds. Do a lot of products. See what takes root. Those are just some of the lessons of the remarkable, Derek Sivers.
My thanks to Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff Sieh, Shannon Hernandez, Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magana, and the drop-in-queen of Santa Cruz, California.
Incidentally, people have come up to me and said, "What exactly is dropping in, and why is Madisun the drop-in queen?" Dropping in is a surfing term. It's when somebody else is on the wave already, and it's his or her wave, but you drop in on that wave getting in that person's way.
It is considered poor form unless, of course, you're friends. If you're friends, you purposely try to drop in. I mean, why surf with friends if you can't try to steal their waves?
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to help you be remarkable. Look for Luis, Alexis, Madisun, and I surfing in Santa Cruz. Be our guests. Drop in on us. Mahalo and aloha.