Author and world-class pediatric surgeon Dr. Dana Suskind will be sharing her expertise on Guy Kawasaki's Remarkable People podcast! Anyone looking for a blueprint for how to build a brighter future for our children will find one in Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise. Informed by the science of foundational brain development as well as history, political science, and the lived experiences of families around the country, this book clearly outlines how society can and should help families meet the developmental needs of their children.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. I am on a mission to make you remarkable.
Today's guest is Dr. Dana Suskind. She is truly remarkable because her goal is to help all children realize their full potential. And she's doing just that.
Dana is a pediatric otolaryngologist, I hope I got that right, who specializes in hearing loss and cochlea implantation.
She is a co-director of the TMW Center for Early Learning and Public Health, Professor of Surgery at the University of Chicago, Director of the Pediatric Cochlear Implant Program and the Founder and Director of The Thirty Million Words Initiative.
She's also the author of a new book, it's called, Parent Nation Unlocking Every Child's Potential Fulfilling Society's Promise. It is a great follow on to her earlier smash it, Thirty Million Words: Building a Child’s Brain.
This means she is an evangelist for scientifically based ways for children to receive the care, nurturing, and stimulation that they need from their first day out of the womb.
Her idea for parents is that they have a nation just as free agents have a nation and seniors have the AARP. Imagine an organization as powerful as the AARP advocating for parents and children. It's enough to make your head explode.
Dana has received several awards for her work, including The Wisen Women For Science Vision and Impact Award, The SYNTEC Gray Humanitarian Award and The Chairman's Award from the Alexander Graham Bell for The Deaf and Heart of Hearing.
In addition to all these honors and distinctions as you will hear, I recruit her to be my Cochlear Implant Concierge. Now that's a niche segment.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now here is the remarkable Dr. Dana Suskind.
Since I'm talking to a world's expert in cochlear implants, I have Meniere’s Disease. So on my right side, I'm basically deaf and I have tinnitus in the right ear.
I have had a, I don't know what you call it, some kind of bypass to control the vertigo, but I still have tinnitus and hearing loss. What's the state of the art of one-sided cochlear implants these days?
Would it help me?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I am doing them all the time now. Remember, I take care of little kids. So anybody taller than myself, you wouldn't count.
But I think that there's some pretty good evidence that the implant would not only help your hearing, but might help your tinnitus as well. So I would consider it.
You want to go to a cochlear implant surgeon who does it all the time, but I'm pretty sure that wherever you are, you've got the state of the art, but I would definitely recommend an implant on that side.
Your quality of life and being able to hear from both ears will be huge. Are you up in near Stanford?
Guy Kawasaki:
My doctor is Joe Roberson at the Stanford Ear Institute.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh, I haven't talked to him for quite some time, but I think we've interacted. So he's great. He's great. These days, the single sided implant is great. Even little kids benefit significantly from it.
Guy Kawasaki:
So now onto more relevant things for you, I have to basically ask a simple question which is, we always talk about family values and how important children are, et cetera, et cetera. But after reading and watching you in action, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of this talk is just bullshit or at least hypocritical.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh my, you went straight for it Guy. I think that what we need to do in this country, we believe, obviously we purport to care about children and families. It's the foundation of who we are, but I think we need to better align what we do as a country to support children and families, both from a policy standpoint, from a business private sector standpoint, I think just realigning what we do with the values that we purport. There's some work to do.
Guy Kawasaki:
And how did we get to this point? Maybe not obviously, but people in Finland aren't at this point. So how did we get to this point?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. How did we get to the point for leaving parents basically on their own in the first five years of life? There are many reasons, but I think one of the main strands is this sort of mythic idea of American individualism, that we are tough and rugged and we go it alone, when in truth, that's a myth.
But at the same time, it's seeped into how we look at supporting children and families have been convinced that they should go it alone, and to ask for help, or to expect support is a form of weakness.
And I think one of my hopes related to this book and related to what's going on in this country is that we start elevating our expectations, understanding that giving parents support is the best way for building our future, and having a strong workforce, and aligning our values.
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't want to open up a whole can of worms, but it seems like much of America is more Pro-Birth than Pro-Life, if you know what I mean.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I think that one thing that I've found is that all parents love their children, Guy. And in this book, I spent hundreds of hours talking to families from all different backgrounds, from all political, religious, educational, race and ethnic backgrounds, literally everyone.
And to a T, what I found was a universal, that all parents love their kids and only want to give their kids all the opportunities in the world.
So I'm not going to go down the line of discussions that we were talking about, but rather focus on what brings us together. And what brings us together is our love for our own children. And hopefully that can spread to all children.
Guy Kawasaki:
How about politician loving other people's children? I grant you, we all love our own children, but what about looking out for society's children?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. That's exactly the basis of the book. And my point is that for politicians to hear us, we need to bring our voices together. And find the things that really are our commonalities, our love for our children, because that is a universal truth.
And by bringing our voices together much like sixty years ago, the elderly, we can push forward societal supports. And this is not just about policies, but social norms, private sector supports. We can really push forward a country that supports all families and all children, because at the end of the day, it's looking out for all of our kids, because that's our future.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Now, could you just explain how a healthy brain develops? Because that's what we're after, right?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. It is the coolest thing in the world, Guy.
You come from the world of computers and big tech. And I think Asimov said something to the effect of the human brain is three pounds of the most complex matter. The smartest of species is really because of the human brain and the first three years of life. You see when we are born, all of our brains are basically the potential for whatever it is that the universe or God provided us.
But really what you need to reach that potential, the way you got as smart as you did was those first three years of life all that input. Basically your mother, your father, your grandfather, any loving caregiver that was around you basically by talking and interacting with you, it helped that brain make all those connections during the first three years of life because you see the brain doesn't come out fully formed.
It's waiting for instructions from the environment, from society to link it up in the ways that make sense.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
So for me, I'm a hearing loss doctor. The whole way I got into it was seeing the impact of a lot of spoken language, and little language, and its impact on the developing brain. So I want people to think about the brain in those first three years of life as universes greatest gift.
It is why we are able to build MAC computers and write symphonies. It is miraculous, but for us to make good on that gift, we need all hands on deck, not just parents, but society supporting parents so that they can make good on that time period.
Guy Kawasaki:
How did we get to the position that oh, learning begins at five?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I think that there's this misconception that learning begins on the first day of school. It starts on the first day of life. And I think that we can't see it because we can't see into the little skulls or heads of toddlers and babies.
And you can't see those million neural connections that happen every second. All you see is this cute cuddly baby and say, "Oh, that's so cute." And because we can't see it, because you can't measure it, we sort of bypass it. Oh little babies they just need glorified babysitting.
In fact, the most powerful period of brain development, one of the most powerful, I'm not saying that there isn't later important time period, but those first three years of life, there is so much brain building happening. But the brain builders at that period of time, aren't necessarily middle school teachers, they're parents and caregivers and early childcare providers and grandparents.
Guy Kawasaki:
I asked this without emotion, okay. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but how do you quote unquote, "scientifically" know this because surely there weren't experiments conducted where we took a random selection of babies and had nobody talk to them.
And we took a random selection of babies and had people to talk to them and then we traced them through their life. And then we found out that population B was happier, more smart than population A. So how do you know this in a scientific sense?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. Remember I am translating a large body of literature that has been happening for a long time. And there is so much literature both showing not just the power of interaction and conversations with a baby.
And I can tell you a really cool recent study that basically, put little kids in a scanner and they showed that those kids that were exposed to more conversations, they had more lighting up of the part of the brain that was important for language and they had better skills.
So there's plenty of developmental science and neuroscience showing the impact of interaction on Early Child Development. But it's not one study, it's a whole sort of line of inquiry showing how important it is.
And you can even go to my literature. I'm a cochlear implant surgeon and researcher and for children who are born deaf, whose families decide that they want them to take a Listening and Spoken Language Approach. Those children who get more input after they get the implant while their language is better, it impacts behavior. The early years is not just about building vocabulary, it's building resilience and behavior.
Yeah, but it's a whole host of science, it's not just one research article.
Guy Kawasaki:
Just one more kind of quasi-skeptical question. Not because I don't believe you, but I'm just-
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh yeah, no. Please.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, what if somebody says, "Okay, yeah, I understand all that, but how do you know it's The Thirty Million Words? Maybe it's toxins, maybe it's other conditions."
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh, no, no. I see what you're saying.
Guy Kawasaki:
What other variables?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Absolutely. Excellent question. You're talking about the fact that one of the research studies that my first book was named after talked about what we call The Thirty Million Words study, which by the way, there are many issues with it.
It basically was a study that purported to show this Thirty Million Word gap between those children who heard a lot of language and those who didn't and the impacts on their educational trajectory. That I view as really a first sentence in this robust literature, showing the importance of the early years. In truth, what children need are basically two major things.
The science has really shown they need nurturing interaction, input that builds things like language development and literacy. But it's not just about the input of language and nurturing what we call serve and return. It's also protection from toxic stress.
There is a lot of research showing that children exposed to incredibly stressful environments, whether it be issues related to gun violence, or even being born in the time of COVID and the stress related to that for parents, has an impact on children's development.
So basically, it's two buckets. They need language and nurturing interaction, and they need protection from toxic stress.
Guy Kawasaki:
Let's take this as a given.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
All right.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now is the primary problem that, well, I guess there's two.
So A, could it be parents don't realize that learning begins at birth and just don't do it? They just assume you can just go hunky-dory until Pre-K.
Or is it just, there's a group of parents who simply for financial logistical, whatever cannot be there for their kids?
What's the bigger problem?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
You're really getting into the reason that I wrote this book, Parent Nation. I'm a surgeon, I got into this research because I wanted to make a difference for my patients.
So we developed all these programs to help parents, as you say, understand the science, understand the power of their language. And the studies and the programs we developed were great. They made an impact, they allowed parents to put into action the science.
But what I saw over and over again was that barrier after barrier were placed in the way of families from all different backgrounds. From issues related to homelessness and mass incarceration, to having to work three jobs and not having no time with your children, to the fact that they had no paid parental leave. From the mundane to the obscene, I just saw these huge issues in the way of families who wanted to do right by their children, which is basically most to all families.
So this book is really taking the fact that we know so much about what children need and what parents need. But there's this huge disconnect between what we know and what we do as a society. So if I had a magic wand and I could either impact every single parent so they know all the science, the way that I know it, or we had structures in a society that actually supported them in that, I would take the latter.
Because I can tell you that parents by and large want to do right by their kids, just because we have a child. Yes, all parents love their children. You don't necessarily know the brain science and yes, we should be sharing this more with parents. I don't know about you, but I didn't know any of this when I had my kids.
But at the same time, we make it so hard in this country for all parents. We make it impossible for some parents, but we make it so hard for so many parents. And COVID 19 has really shown us this. And I think we're at the crossroads. I think we can do better. I think we want to do better.
Guy Kawasaki:
How is it that the richest country in the world has this problem? And you might think, "Okay, in a country that's truly impoverished. Parents don't have time for their kids." Because I don't know, walking five hours to get a gallon of fresh water, I understand that. But in the wealthiest country in the world? What am I missing here?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. I think what you're missing and we are missing is the public will, the political will to push it forward. The expectation that yes, in a society like ours, the parents and children deserve the support.
We invest a minuscule amount in children and families compared to any population, forget about Finland and that area of the world. I get it. We're not going to be there, but even middling.
There's this amazing chart that I can share with you that showed the investment. And the average investment is about $14,000 per child per year for childcare. We invest about $500 per child like a drop in the bucket.
And I think it reveals how we view the importance of the early years, the importance of parents, but at the same time, the science has just exploded. We know and understand so much about what children need.
I've come to the conclusion and part of the reason that I've written this book and talking to you is that we need the public will to push it forward. We need to see our collective identity as the guardians of the future and the need for supporting children and families.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's hard to argue against this. But the bad news is how do you make people understand that an investment in children pays off in the long run? Because typically that investment is going to pay off after one's term in office.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
First, let me just say that yes. One of the difficult things on the surface is this long-term return on investment, which is about seven to twelve dollars per dollar we spend for the long term and the fact that we're going to have a stronger workforce, et cetera, that's further down.
But the truth is that there are immediate gains as well. The fact is that we have this huge, great resignation of so many people leaving the workforce, primarily women, often because of the issue of the lack of support and infrastructure to take care of children.
You can't have people make the impossible choice, "Oh, work or leave my children at home by themselves." Which of course I've heard so many stories about that. But I think that, yes, that is why we need this public will, which I think can occur at the very least paid parental leave and family leave. All thirty-eight OECD countries have it, it's the lowest bar. Let's get that going.
Guy Kawasaki:
But I think there's a very powerful group of people who believe that, "Oh, if we give people six months of leave, that's because they're lazy and it's not an investment in our future or our children. That's because they're lazy, and they think they're entitled, and blah, blah, blah." And it's socialism.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Actually. You know what? Just the opposite.
When you look at the polls, there is huge bipartisan support for things like paid parental leave. The fact is right now, one in four parents go back to work, mothers within two weeks of giving birth one in four. And when you actually look at the polls, the vast majority of people believe in paid leave and having high quality childcare.
From the economic standpoint, it is such a strong case. We need a workforce today. So I think it's a matter of time because it is about capitalism. You can't have capitalism without people working in a strong workforce.
The funny thing is that in writing this book, some of my favorite part is actually learning the history. And the fact that we had free public education, we were one of the first, if not the first.
It is the reason that we won the last century. We were the innovators and the rest of the world caught up with us. And now they've even bypassed us because they see the importance of investing in the early years. I think this is a matter of competitiveness. We want to be innovative. We need a strong workforce. We need to start building the brains from day one.
This is not a feel-good thing. This is about a country being strong.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now to back up a little. So let's suppose I'm listening to this and I, or my partner, is pregnant and I'm thinking, "Okay, I believe it. I'll take your word for it."
But what exactly tactically should mom and dad do day one and on, first thousand days.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I want two things.
First is to just know how powerful they are for building their child's brain. That every interaction, every nurturing snuggle they do are actually building a million new neural connections every second. And actually in my first book in the research that we did, we called down what you need to do with your baby. And we call it The Three Ts: Tune in, Talk more, Take turns.
Tuning into their baby, talking about whatever the baby is interested in, and then taking turns. Believe it or not, you can have a conversation with your baby from day one. They may not be able to talk back. They might gurgle, or they may look somewhere, but really having that conversation. And those are the things that are resulting in the neural connections.
So I want them to use The Three Ts with their baby, but then also give themselves grace. The fact is none of us parent alone, and to be okay, looking around and accepting support from your grandparents, from your community and expecting more and know how important you are, not only for that baby but for the future adult that a baby will become.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, reading your book. I have four children. I must admit, I thought, "Oh man, did I talk enough to my fourth child?"
Dr. Dana Suskind:
You did. I promise you, I promise.
Guy Kawasaki:
"Oh shit, did I blow it?" And so now let's suppose you're listening to this and your kids are already teenagers. Is it too late? Should we just teach them how to be better parents? And we can't do anything, we blew the window.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
No, no, no.
First of all, I always joke that if I knew this stuff, when I was actually having my children. My kids are, are grown like yours. I think that I would've been a much better mother, but my kids turned out okay. There is something called good enough parenting. This is more of a population level thing. I promise you that you did great.
But it's more the fact that, number one, the message is not it's ever too late. It is never too late. And the brain develops and continues to evolve even at our age. So that's number one. And it's more the societal thing. I want the belief shift to be at a societal level at this point.
Most parents understand how important they are. And I have to tell you something Guy, so my late husband was Asian and so my kids are mixed as well. And actually one of them is out in Silicon Valley.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh really?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
In tech?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
In tech. At Facebook. Oh Meta oops. Oops. Yeah, Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh mom. Get it right.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I know. I know. She corrected me when I used to say San Fran. She's like, “Mom, it's SF. Please get it right.”
Guy Kawasaki:
It's like sometimes I meet people and they say, "Oh yeah, I was close friends with Steve Jobbs." And I said, "I don't think you were that close if you call him Steve Jobbs. But okay."
Dr. Dana Suskind:
That's so funny.
Guy Kawasaki:
As I was reading this, I was thinking, I’ve met very few parents today put their babies to sleep on their stomach, right?
So we figured out SIDS. So if we can figure out SIDS, we surely can figure out that they're learning from day one. So don't put them on their stomach and talk to them.
How hard could that be?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Exactly.
Guy Kawasaki:
Right?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Exactly. That's the whole message.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's it? That's all you need to know.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
That's all you need to know.
Look, if society would just align to how children develop healthy brain development, everything else would fall into place. It's so clear. It's not that complex.
We just need to give parents time and enrichment so that they can provide that to their children. They need to provide their children a common environment. We need to provide that to parents. It's really not that hard.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. At my stage, my kids have to provide their parents with a calm environment, but that's a different subject.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Wait, wait. Although I do want to say, I don't want this to be one more thing on parent shoulders. They are overwhelmed as it is.
Actually if anything, I want this to be a message for you and me who have a little bit more bandwidth to say, "You know what, we wanted a better for our kids so that they can raise our grandkids."
You know the falling fertility rate, right?
My daughter's number one advice that she got when she went out to start in tech was, to get ahead wasn't about getting an advanced degree or networking in a certain way. It was don't have kids, do not have kids.
Guy Kawasaki:
Who's older that?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
A lot of female people in tech. Nobody in positions of power, but it makes sense. We have no societal supports for it. So you're making a really difficult choice and this falling fertility rate, I know it's multifactorial. There's no doubt about it.
But the fact that the number one reason that people say they're holding off is because of the lack of high-quality childcare. I think if you and I want grandkids ever, I'd change that. No, I'm joking.
Guy Kawasaki:
Since we're talking about tech so much, what's the role of Baby Einstein, and other things like that? Are you supposed to pan them in front of that video and watch little elephants count numbers and all of that? Or is it parents? Or is it any form of verbal communication?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
So it's really about that responsive contingency. It needs to be a responsive at this point, human. That responds in real time to the nuances of that conversation or interaction between adult and child.
So sticking them in front of Baby Einstein and TV will not work. And I can tell you about all the cool science behind it but sadly, that doesn't work.
On the other hand, interaction on a video Zoom does work.
So it's really the interaction that's key.
Now I'm sure that people in tech will figure out how to provide contingent responsiveness for babies at some point. But at this point, it's all on parents and caregivers and the adults in their world for building a brain.
Guy Kawasaki:
But I just want to make sure I heard you correctly. So you're saying that this responsive interaction via something like Zoom is effective?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
So there's not been a huge amount of research. But one of my colleagues, Kathy Hirsh-Pasek and Roberta Golinkoff did a study looking at these video chats with grandparents in vocabulary. And they found that it was unlike just sticking them in front of a video that it was positive.
So there's not a huge literature behind it, but it makes sense because if the baby's saying something and the adult is saying something back that's responsive. It's better than a nonresponsive video for sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
You can get virtual tutoring. Why can't you get virtual parenting?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
So now your vision for Parent Nation, is it a combination of AARP? Mothers against drunk driving and the NRA? You put those three things together and you got.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh gosh. Look, my vision for Parent Nation, or building a Parent Nation, is that we give a vision to people of what could be in our society. A society that really is aligned with putting children and families at the center and that we start the national discussion and that we elevate our expectations for the importance of the early years.
Do I think that an organization like the AARP that has been hugely effective in changing what it means to be elderly in this country? Absolutely. Honestly, the history of the AARP is incredible.
Back in the fifties, sixties, forties, the elderly were the poorest most underserved aged individuals in our country. Greater than 50 percent lived below the minimum standards of decency. And really the AARP really changed all of that.
So security, Medicare, there's no age demographic that's better and deservedly so in being supported.
I think of children and therefore their parents in the same way that they are so deserved of support. They're building the next generation. There's so much science behind why it's important.
Let me tell you, I talked to all groups. I know it feels very polarized at this moment, but when you really remove all of everything and you really talk about what families want, they just want to raise their kids and give them all the opportunities to be happy and successful.
And I think that an organization like that could advocate on behalf of families and provide family's voice. So we'll see.
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't expect you to embrace this idea, but-
Dr. Dana Suskind:
You're going to run it Guy. You're going to run it, please. You're the great evangelizer. You can do it. I know it.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'll advise it, but I won't run it.
So I think what would be extremely powerful in a time where there appears to be political reluctance to support families, is that just like another of the organizations I mentioned, there should be a report card.
It should say that Mitch McConnell gets an A, B, C or D, or Gavin Newsom gets an A, B, C or D and rated by the Parent Nation. How supportive are you of our families? A, B, C or D?
And I got to tell you if I believe that, if you did that, and man, if I were a politician who got a C and my opponent brought that to light, I got to tell you that would be extremely powerful for at least half the people voting.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I love that idea. I think that's a brilliant idea. And the funny thing is I think that the AARP does something similar. The AARP doesn't back candidates, it's not partisan. It's one third Democrat, one third Republican, one third Independence.
But in that same way, give sort of report cards for how supportive they are for the elderly. And so I love that. I'm going to call it The Guy Kawasaki rating system.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's always not wise to sell past the sale. But I think that for a long time degrading system of the NRA was an extremely effective political weapon and maybe not so much anymore.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
But I got to tell you that for a while, if the NRA said you were a C plus on gun control, you didn't get elected in some places.
So why can't your grading be as powerful? You definitely bifurcate on gun control.
But it's hard to imagine what population is going to stand for, "No, we don't want healthy kids and we don't want productive parents. We're anti parent." Let me see that minority group, who's in that group?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
As you say, I want this to be all of us, right? It's so easy for things to become partisan and polarized, but this is something as you say, that everybody cares about and I want it to be that way. Yeah, I like how you think.
Guy Kawasaki:
Make your great system. Okay. Now, for those of us who are beyond our first thousand days, maybe what's sixty-seven times 365? Whatever that number is.
So do you have any insights in how to maintain a healthy brain? Assuming that you had a healthy brain from your caring Three Ts parents? So now it's sixty-seven. What do you do?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh gosh, you're getting outside of my expertise zone, frankly. But my understanding is having a greater purpose and staying active.
And you certainly have a greater purpose that greater purpose, what I would like for every sixty-seven-year-old is to help us build a Parent Nation. That is the best way to stay young and vital.
Guy Kawasaki:
No conflict there.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Exactly. Come on.
Guy Kawasaki:
I give you A for transparency that's for sure.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. Best way to stay young is to hang out with the young and help their development.
But no, I think a greater purpose and staying active. Purpose is really important for all of us.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, one last question. So let's suppose that I'm listening to this and I'm the CEO of a company or VP of HR and I'm thinking “Our family policy sucks.”
And so if Tim Cook or Jeff Bezos or God help you, Elon Musk calls you up and says, "All right, so help me design the best Family Fringe Benefit Plan for employees, what would be in it?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh my gosh. First, there are so many things that I could talk about, but let me just call it down. I think there are three main buckets.
There's the issue of flexibility, time and time again on talking with families and parents across the spectrum. The lack of flexibility made things very difficult. Kids don't get sick on times off.
So building in some flexibility, understanding, "Look, we can't be all things." But I think some element of flexibility and associated leave. I think those are really core things.
And if you can do some high-quality childcare, that would be amazing.
I talk about this in the book. This is less a policy, but starting to make visible what is so often invisible for all of us. The fact that we are whole human beings and that we are ideal workers.
Look, I work twenty-four-seven, but I am more than just my work, I am my family as well. And I think that leaders you spoke about, but all leaders have a real power in being able to say, "Oh, you know what? I have four kids and I'm going off to see my son or my daughter play baseball."
And to embrace it as a social norm and a form of pride. And this is much about shifting norms and public will, as it is about the core things that you need to do.
But if any of those individuals want to talk to me, I'm happy to talk to them. Although there's so much great work being done.
And I do want to say I'm really bullish on the role of the private sector. We can see that things sometimes at the federal level, it's complicated. Things are less complicated in the business sector. They're complicated, but I think that at the end of the day, there are about outputs and positive outputs.
And the nice thing about the role of early childhood and families is that it is a net positive. It helps us be more productive and have a better bottom line today and tomorrow.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, can you name a number for how many weeks or months for maternity and paternity?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
That's a great question and I will not do that. Why? Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why.
Guy Kawasaki:
Why?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
It's not that I don't believe, but I view my role. I'm not a politician, I'm not a policymaker. I am a neuroscientist and a pediatric physician who is sharing the lens of what it is the children need for healthy development.
To put the specific number, does it need to be twelve weeks, six months? There give and takes to all of those numbers. It's too much to go into.
But rather for me to be able to say, "Look, leave is important for healthy development of both parents and for children. And I can tell you the science around that."
So that's the role that I want to play. So I won't give you the exact number. How about that?
Although I can tell you in California, which obviously has paid leave, it has ultimately been obviously a positive thing and it has been 90 percent of private organizations saying it's been a net positive and most people say it's been neutral in terms of impacting them.
Because people are worried is this going to impact business in a negative way? And it hasn't at all and oftentimes can be positive.
Guy Kawasaki:
What number are they talking about when they're saying that we have maternity and paternity?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Again, I can't pull it out of my head right now. Sorry.
Guy Kawasaki:
See, is there another way I can ask you that? So that you have to-
Dr. Dana Suskind:
You're just trying to force me.
Guy Kawasaki:
No, but seriously, people are listening to this and say, "Okay, clearly I have to do The Three Ts and from day one." But at some point they got to know if Google offers four weeks, and Apple offers six months and you're really concerned about your parents. You might choose Apple over Google.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yeah. You get to another important point. The fact that it's good for the bottom line of businesses is that it also attracts a strong workforce.
Ultimately, it's parents' choice. Some parents choose to take off shorter periods of time, some take off longer. And my point is that there should be the option for both.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. If you know what country offers the most maternity and paternity leave?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Definitely the Scandinavian countries. And I can't pull it out of my head.
But there's a lot of discussion because I'm married to an economist, I have the economics lens too. And their impacts for women that aren't always in the positive, from the workforce perspective and building their careers.
Now it's a matter of choice, but I think understanding their tradeoffs, for sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, just for my listener, you heard me try to pin her down to a number. I couldn't do it, but I tried.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
How about this? Look, Guy, I just want more than we have now. Right now we've got the big zero anything more than. Just give me a few months.
Right now that's the real discussion, pin me down on that, yes. We need paid family and medical leave.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Good enough.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Do you have grandchildren?
Guy Kawasaki:
Not yet, but I tell you the moment they're born, I'll be reading to them.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
You're going to be reading? I'm going to send you the first book as well. Although I think they're going to be just fine.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm going to have a Zoom terminal in their bedroom. If I'm not there, they're going to get me on Zoom.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Every night, Grandpa Guy, for sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
Maybe I'll do a scientific experiment while I'll interact with one set of grandchildren and not the other and see how they fair through.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
No. Randomized control trial. No.
Guy Kawasaki:
I talked to this economist lately and he's talking about real world testing and how important it is…
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Exactly, not on your grandchildren.
But Guy, honestly, your background is amazing. I must admit, I listen to the one podcast for how you make world changing ideas come to life. So I'm going to beg you to talk to me again. It doesn't have to be on a podcast because you're exactly who I need as an advisor for this crazy idea.
Guy Kawasaki:
I sign up. I'll do it.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Yay.
Guy Kawasaki:
One of the people I interviewed my podcast is a guy named Bob Cialdini and he is the world's greatest expert on influence and persuasion. I'm like point-one of Bob Cialdini.
And anyway, one of his crucial concepts of influence and persuasion is contrary to what most people want to believe. You should tell people how they can pay you back, because it enables them to clear the decks, pay you back and then they can ask you to do more.
So you just asked me to help and advise you and I'm telling you yes. And now because I'm a Bob Cialdini disciple, I'm going to tell you how to pay me back. And the way you can pay me back is you can just implant a cochlear implant into my head and then will be even. How's that?
Dr. Dana Suskind:
I'll be your private cochlear implant advisor. And you'll be my advisor to starting a move.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. You'll be my Cochlear concierge.
Dr. Dana Suskind:
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
So that's Dr. Dana Suskind and her idea for a Parent of Nations. I just adore the idea.
I can't wait to see if Parent Nation creates a scorecard for politicians.
OMG, be sure to pick up her book, Parent Nation. It is a handbook for how to create this powerful force for our kids and families.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People.
My thanks to Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff Sieh, Shannon Hernandez, Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magaña, and Roy's Waikiki's happiest customer Madisun Nuismer.
Guy Kawasaki:
Until next time, Mahalo and Aloha.