We're starting the year with the Godmother of Creativity: Julia Cameron. Julia is the author of The Artist’s Way…which has inspired more creativity than any other document except the shareholder’s report of Theranos. Hailed by the New York Times as "The Queen of Change," she is the bestselling author of more than forty books as well as musicals and plays including her latest, Seeking Wisdom: A Spiritual Path to Creative Connection (A Six-Week Artist's Way Program.) A perfect way to start the new year! Enjoy Julia Cameron with host Guy Kawasaki on this week's Remarkable People podcast.
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Past guests on Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People Podcast: Dr. Jane Goodall, Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff, Netflix’s Dream Home Makeover stars Shea and Syd McGee of McGee Studios, Daniel Pink, Tiny Habit’s author BJ Fogg, Dave Evans author of Designing your Life, The Artist’s Way author Julia Cameron, Entrepreneur and host of Smart Passive Income PAT FLYNN, Seth Godin, Hollywood director Jon M. Chu, indie author Hugh Howey, Rich Benoit of Rich Rebuilds, Dr. Robert Cialdini, Mark Manson, Martha Stewart, Brandi Chastain, Star of Netflix's Skin Decision Dr. Sheila Nazarian, Luvvie Ajayi Jones, Dr. Sinan Aral, Scott Galloway, Canva CEO Melanie Perkins, iJustine, Kristi Yamaguchi, Chef Roy Yamaguchi, Celebrity Chef Andrew Zimmern, Gary Vaynerchuk, Sir Ken Robinson, Steve WOZ Wozniak, Ariana Huffington, Wee Man of Jack Ass fame, Margaret Atwood, Stephan Wolfram, Dr. Phil Zimbardo The Stanford Prison Experiment, and new remarkable people each Wednesday!
Guy Kawasaki:
Hello, it's Guy Kawasaki.
This is the Remarkable People podcast.
It is January 2022, and I want to begin the year with an interview of the best person in the world to get us off to a remarkable start.
And that person is none other than Julia Cameron.
She's the author of The Artist's Way. This has inspired more creativity than any other document, except maybe the shareholder's report of Theranos.
Julia is the godmother of creativity.
She's the author of more than forty books, as well as the creator of musicals, plays, and movies.
Thirty years after The Artist's Way, she turns her attention to creative prayer in her new book, Seeking Wisdom: A Spiritual Path to Creative Connection.
In this episode, we cover; personal prayer, carnal knowledge, the analog nature of Morning Pages, the spirituality of gardening, the awesomeness of Brenda Ueland, and how to get deer to lick a lick.
Yep. There's something for everyone in this episode.
I'm Guy Kawasaki.
This is Remarkable People. And now here is the remarkable, truly remarkable, Julia Cameron.
Testing 1, 2, 3. Testing 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3.
So first of all, is Nigel in the box.
Julia Cameron:
Nigel is my inner critic and Nigel has plenty to say. I try to say, "Nigel, thank you for sharing" and ignore the advice.
Guy Kawasaki:
Good for you.
And how is Lily?
Julia Cameron:
Oh, Lily is excellent. She's a very enjoyable dog. She keeps me great company. Maybe she'll come in and we'll be able to see her.
Guy Kawasaki:
I hope so. I hope so.
So I learned a little fact about you, which I just loved, which is that you were born on March fourth as in F O R T H and F O U R T H.
Julia Cameron:
Right.
Guy Kawasaki:
Is that perfect or what?
Julia Cameron:
It's a wonderful direction. March forth young woman.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yep. That was divine.
I have two more off the beaten path questions.
Julia Cameron:
Well, we'll try.
Guy Kawasaki:
I love the concept of the four dear day and I am sitting with a window that looks out into a little forest preserve and I put a salt block out there to attract deer, but no deer have come. And I know there are deer around here because I see them when I drive.
So do you have any deer tips? Like how do I get the deer to come to my window?
Julia Cameron:
I don't know that I have any deer tips except to say that the expectation of deer probably calls deer.
So I think you're putting out the salt lick and you're expecting that any moment you're going to see them is a Clarion call and I believe they'll come.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, one more question that, as you can tell, I just enjoy interviewing you. So I'm asking you questions that probably no other podcaster would ever ask you, but I'm going to read to you from your book and I want you to answer, perhaps an off color question.
Is that all right?
Julia Cameron:
We'll see.
Guy Kawasaki:
So first let me read, "Once again, Eve plucks the apple and offers it to Adam for a delicious bite. Then what happens? The sky's part and a booming voice declares, ‘Far out took you long enough. I made that apple red for a reason. Enjoy it, for that matter enjoy each other. All is well."’
So my question is, are you saying with “Enjoy each other”, what I think you're saying?
Julia Cameron:
I think so. I believe in a higher power that's sensual, and that gave us our sexual abilities as an extra gift. And so when I say enjoy each other, I mean it in the fullest most carnal sense of the word.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, I could stop this interview right there and put it out there.
I love that. Oh, all right.
So now we'll get serious, but that was a serious question actually.
So first serious question is, please tell us about the God that you pray to, the characteristics of that God.
Julia Cameron:
I want to say, first of all, that the God I pray to is encouraging, compassionate, kind, humorous, far seeing, tolerant, tender, patient, passionate, a lot of wonderful traits.
And I believe in a line from Dylan Thomas, “The force that through the green fuse drives the flower”, and that force, that creative energy is what I pray to.
Guy Kawasaki:
And why is it that so many people have a concept of God that is basically opposite of what you just said.
Julia Cameron:
We've inherited a Calvinistic worldview. We've inherited a view of God that's negative, and authoritarian, and difficult, and forbidding.
And I think that our ancestors believed that it was necessarily that kind of God they were trying to please. And so we grew up "trying to please a God that there was no pleasing".
Guy Kawasaki:
And if someone were to make a movie depicting your God, who would you have play that part?
Julia Cameron:
Aha. Meryl Streep.
I did make a movie called God's Will. It was a romantic comedy. It's available on my website. People can watch it for fun and for free. And in the movie, God is an attractive red-haired lady golfer.
Guy Kawasaki:
Why golf?
Julia Cameron:
Because it's a relaxing sport.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
How does one go about creating a personal definition of God?
Julia Cameron:
I would say, first of all, take a pen and paper and start with the negatives and jot down all the negative God concepts that you may have grown up with. Then make another column and jot down all the positive attributes you would like a creative God to have.
And just the act of saying "I want a God who's funny", gives us a step in the right direction.
Guy Kawasaki:
What is the link between creativity and spirituality?
Julia Cameron:
I would hesitate to say “The link between”, because I feel that they're actually one and the same. And what I have found is that if I have people work on their creativity, their spirituality wakes up. And if I have people work on their spirituality, their creativity wakes up.
So I see the two things as being closely married.
Guy Kawasaki:
So do you think that all spiritual people are creative and all creative people are spiritual?
Julia Cameron:
Yes. In a nutshell.
Guy Kawasaki:
That simple?
Julia Cameron:
Yes.
But one of the things that I wrote in my book, The Artist's Way was that everyone is creative, and therefore, everyone is spiritual.
Guy Kawasaki:
I would anticipate that most people know what Morning Pages are who listen to this, but just in case, perhaps you can define it.
And then my question about it is, in this day and age, is it okay to type it in?
Julia Cameron:
No, handwritten is best. There's a direct link between our hand and our heart.
And when you type, you tend to go whizzing past important events.
So I think I should explain what Morning Pages are. They are the bedrock tool of a creative recovery.
They are three pages of long hand morning writing that you do first thing on waking up. You may get a cup of coffee, but that's about it. And you write this is what I like, this is what I don't like, this is what I want more of, this is what I want less of.
And it's as if you're giving your coordinates, like you're on a little life raft and you're in the middle of the ocean, and you're giving your coordinates to the big ship to come and save.
So I think morning pages are a very practical form of meditation.
A lot of westerners have a hard time sitting for twenty minutes doing nothing. So I say, sit for twenty minutes and do something. And it appeals to our work ethic.
Guy Kawasaki:
Since we're going down the tools here, that's one of the four, and it's been a year since we talked last, has anything changed about Artist Dates, any update on how to have a good Artist Date?
Julia Cameron:
What happened was that we were in COVID lockdown.
So ordinarily an artist date is taken outside of your house, and it's something that's festive, solo, enjoyable, and you go out and you do it and you expand your sense of self.
But then all of a sudden we had COVID and we were told, “Now you must stay home.”
So then we had to turn our imagination on what we could do right in our own home. And it might be take a bubble bath, listen to some drum music, dance barefoot, make a pot of homemade soup, make a pie.
So we turned our creativity close into home. And that was a difference in the artist date from a year ago.
Guy Kawasaki:
How about the walk?
Julia Cameron:
Walking again, sometimes it was forbidden, and then you couldn't do it, but other times you could do it, but you could do it masked.
And so I like to think I have legions of masked Artist Way followers, trudging to get a sense of connection to the higher power.
Guy Kawasaki:
You think God would get vaccinated?
Julia Cameron:
Do I think God would get vaccinated?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes.
Julia Cameron:
Yes. To set a good example.
Guy Kawasaki:
There you go.
As only Julia Cameron could possibly say in one sentence, there you go. That's a drop the mic moment.
Next question. Perhaps you could please give us a prayer for dummies, short course on prayer. Why, what for, how you do it.
Julia Cameron:
I have a short prayer for dummies, which I'll happily recite.
It was published in 1942 by a man named James Dillet Freeman. And it goes, "The light of God surrounds me, the love of God enfolds me, the power of God protects me, the presence of God watches over me, wherever I am, God is".
And I use that prayer myself. And I love it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Can you give us a short course on people who are listening to this, who aren't praying, how and why.
Julia Cameron:
People who aren't praying are depriving themselves of a great source of strength. And now I want you to try, and I would say, take a pen and paper, which I always say “Take a pen and paper”, and write for guidance, which is one of the fourth tools and say, “Can I have guidance about X”, and then write the issue that's eddying through your mind.
And then I want you to listen and hear if you hear a response. And what we find is that it's much easier to get guidance than we think. And therefore it's much easier to pray than we would imagine.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think that all prayers are created equal?
For example, praying for wants, success, car, whatever, versus difficult issues, bad news, sickness.
Are all prayers created equal?
Julia Cameron:
I think that the higher power welcomes any and all prayers. So they may not be considered equal in our mind, but they're given equal attention as they cross the holy desk.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's a busy desk.
What is your reaction when a politician or any kind of leader says “Our thoughts and prayers are with you after a tragedy?”
Julia Cameron:
I'm delighted to have them opening the door to a higher power. And I'm delighted to think that our politicians do perhaps make a conscious contact with a higher power in a time of adversity.
And not to get too political. It was nonetheless after the last election, a relief to hear the spiritual grounding of our leader.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have a negative reaction when I hear that, because I think that many politicians say our thoughts and prayers as if that's the most, and the best, and what they should do, but they do not address the fundamental issue that created the adversity.
I say, thoughts and prayers, next, done.
Julia Cameron:
This is where we need discernment. And we need to start judging our politicians by their actions and not simply by their words.
So I think you and I are saying the same thing essentially.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think that prayer is more for the person praying or for the higher power we are praying to?
Julia Cameron:
It's a two way street. When we pray, we reach out and we make contact. And that creates, for us, an inner peace and guidance.
And again, I believe in a humorous God. So I believe God chuckles at some of our requests.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you ever think that God is up there thinking “I really made a mistake? I should not have let so much free will happen. I should have controlled the situation more because these humans are clueless.”
Julia Cameron:
I don't think God thinks he made a mistake, but it takes patience on our part to try and take the long view and to say, “Despite apparent adversity, things are working out for the better.”
And despite everything, I'm an optimist. I think that prayer invites further optimism.
Guy Kawasaki:
And why do you remain an optimist in global warming, political divisiveness, racism? How do you maintain optimism despite all of that?
Julia Cameron:
This is where I sound like a fanatic. Ready.
I maintain optimism by writing Morning Pages. I find that the daily practice of pages tutors me in optimism. And I find that when I use the fourth tool of guidance and say, "Can I have guidance about X?”
I hear back something that's benign, gentle, forward looking, optimistic. And I find myself saying, "Oh, maybe the world isn't such a rotten place after all".
Guy Kawasaki:
What do you think is the place of prayer in the Catholic sense, in the sense of there's these exact words that you use versus praying in your own words?
Julia Cameron:
Speaking for myself, I had sixteen years of Catholic education. So when they said pray, they meant say the, our father. And what I found was that I didn't have a God concept that meshed very clearly with this. I didn't know that I thought God was our father, or that a father was necessarily a benign figure.
So what happened for me was when I got sober, I was told that I had to pray and I thought, “Oh dear God, no.” And they said, just pray in your own words.
So suddenly I started being candid. And instead of being formal, I found myself saying, “Dear God, I'm miserable today". And what I found was that when I was candid, I believed that the higher power was listening.
It closed the gap between me and a deity if you would.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you believe that formal or formalistic prayer has any place or any role?
Julia Cameron:
It's fine if you're comfortable with it. And there are many powerful prayer.
There's a prayer that they use in AA, which goes, "God, I offer myself to thee, to build with me and do with me what you will". And that's a pretty profound prayer.
I believe there's a place for formal prayer, and a place for informal prayer where you might just say a one word prayer, which would be "Help".
Guy Kawasaki:
When I do a podcast interview, usually I read the person's latest book, and many times it's an author. And I will tell you that just reading the forward of this book provided me with enough material to do this interview. I didn't even have to read the whole rest of the book. That was such a powerful forward.
So I just want to tell you that because as a writer, I truly appreciate the power of your forward there.
Julia Cameron:
Thank you. And I had something happen. I have a friend who's a British publisher and I sent him the book and he called me up and he said, "Julia, I'm an atheist and a Jew, hardly you're two target audiences. But the book spoke to me. I found it personally relevant".
And I thought, “Oh, he's a great gardener, and I don't see how you can garden without coming away with a sense of the higher power.” But maybe for him, it's a creative energy that he feels no need to call God.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wait, wait. Why do you have to believe in a higher power to be a gardener?
Julia Cameron:
I think you don't have to believe in a higher power to be a gardener, but to be a gardener is to come in contact with a higher power.
Are you a gardener?
Guy Kawasaki:
I can't claim to be a gardener. No, sorry.
Julia Cameron:
Maybe we could put out some plants that the deer would like to nibble.
Guy Kawasaki:
As a matter of fact, I go and pick figs from our fig tree and throw them out there right next to the salt lick and something eats the figs, but there's nothing out there licking the lick. Maybe I should pray that I have some deer lick my lick.
So that's personal prayer, right?
Julia Cameron:
That would be a prayer petition, “Dear God.”
Guy Kawasaki:
So Julia, this is more statement than anything else, but I read this book and I know you've written dozens of other books, but I really see this book as just the culmination. This is where you brought everything together. Do you think that?
Julia Cameron:
Thank you. But I will tell you that since I wrote this book, I've written another book.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh my.
Julia Cameron:
So I felt clearly there was something else to say. And the book that I wrote after this prayer book was a book called Write for Life.
And it's a gentle, direct, hopefully persuasive writing guide. I felt like I had tools to share about writing. And so I did.
Guy Kawasaki:
So are you going to replace Brenda Ueland in my life for inspiring writing books?
Julia Cameron:
I don't think anybody can replace Brenda Ueland. And we should maybe tell our audience that she said a couple of things that were really powerful.
She's a great walker. And she said, "I will tell you what works for me. It's a long five or six mile walk and one must go alone, and every day."
So I thought that was laying down quite a challenge for people. I believe that you don't have to go five or six miles.
You maybe only have to go twenty minutes.
And the other thing she said is when you are dealing with the higher power you are perhaps being talked to in an incandescent way, by God and his messengers. So maybe she was a gardener.
Guy Kawasaki:
I will tell you that if you want to write, the Brenda Ueland book, Change my Life, literally that book changed my life. My wife gave that to me as I was writing my first book and no other book has ever empowered me as much as that book.
Julia Cameron:
I didn't read the book before I wrote The Artist's Way. I read it after. And I found myself thinking, yes, yes.
She talks about taking artist dates. I have different words. She talks about morning writing. She talks about going on festive expeditions.
And these were tools that I had thought that I devised myself. But instead I found that she had beat me to the punch. I was grateful for her book. It was reinforcement.
Guy Kawasaki:
And when is your book coming out?
Julia Cameron:
It'll be a year from now.
Guy Kawasaki:
So we'll do this again.
Julia Cameron:
That would be fun. I get to hear if you had your deer show up.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes. If I can't get deer to show up in the next year, I don't deserve to interview you, Julia.
Guy Kawasaki:
I hope you enjoyed this interview of Julia Cameron.
She is truly remarkable.
I will keep you posted on whether I get the deer to lick the lick. I know you'll constantly be wondering about that issue.
In the meantime, be creative, write those Morning Pages, dent the universe, all that good stuff.
My thanks to Jeff Sieh, Peg Fitzpatrick, Shannon Hernandez, Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magana, and Madisun drop in queen Nuismer.
By the way, this is the second time that Julia has been on the Remarkable People podcast.
If you like this episode, go to our archives at remarkablepeople.com and listen her first episode. It's also truly remarkable.
Anyway, it's 2022. I hope this is the best year of your life.